[Mb-civic] religion

Thu Aug 19 09:09:11 PDT 2004

well its also a matter of interpretation robin
when christ says there is no way to the father but through me
that can be taken to mean that one cannot reach god
but by leading a godly christlike way of life
nowhere in the bible does it say that the text is
the unpurgated word of god nor that every word should be
followed absolutely literarally in its simplest as opposed to broader broadest connotation
a virtuous atheist is acceptable in the sight of god 
no question
and god didnt make one billion budhiists and a billion muslims
to toss them into hell
that is the lie of elements of organized christianity
who have tried to decrease the size of the flock of god
at their whim

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Robin McNamara 
  To: mb-civic at islandlists.com 
  Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 4:54 AM
  Subject: Re: [Mb-civic] religion

  Ian

  I have said this to you before I respect your beliefs & your version of God but with your 'philosophy' the problem is that you have no respect for other faiths & or ways of believing because you believe if mankind doesn't follow your way of believing than you are condemmed to hell, which is ludicrous.

  Peace
  Robin

  ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Ian 
    To: mb-civic at islandlists.com 
    Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 1:08 AM
    Subject: Re: [Mb-civic] religion

    Madbaker:

    You misconstrue my meaning.  In referring to the Old Testament, I was not inferring that the Jewish religion is "all old fashioned and wrong," either per se or vis-a-vis other religions.  I was simply pointing out that all of Harris' examples were from the Old Testament, and thus he was ignoring the New Testament entirely - because had he not done so, he would have had to admit that a vast majority of its passages gainsay his argument and his lumping of all Christians (indeed, all Judeo-Christians) into a neat little box with the words "conservative zealot."

    As for your comment that you find it "boggling" that "in the 21st century we have large groups of human beings who put their trust in these books": it is my very trust in these books that makes me who I am; it is my very belief in Christ, His ministry and His sacrifice that lead me to live a "Christ-like" life guided by love, peace, forgiveness, compassion, humility, patience, charity, selflessness and service.  If you want to take issue with the fact that so many Christians are either unable or unwilling to do so, you will find no disagreement from me.  However, to simply apply a "broad brush" to Christianity as you do provides absolutely nowhere to go re any positive discourse, and thus only inflames and exacerbates the entire issue.

    Finally, you state that "the majority of the top scientists" believe "that the universe was created by a big bang."  I have two comments.  First, since that theory is as unprovable as the notion of God's "creation" of the universe in six days, what exactly are you basing your "faith" in that theory on?  If science is your God, then at worst you and I simply believe in different gods (though I am not suggesting that I believe in the "six days" concept; I am of the belief that the two theories "overlap," but that we (humans) simply haven't found the "common element" yet).

    Second, it might surprise you to know that more than half of the "top" scientists in the world are people of faith; i.e., they believe in God.  That is an undisputed, statistical fact.  As an aside, let's not forget that Einstein was a believer (and it was not simply his offhand comment that "God does not play dice with the universe"), and that Darwin was a minister before he became a naturalist - and, according to many accounts, went back to his faith in his later life, after admitting that his theory of evolution did not account for everything.  Keppler was a deacon, and remained a committed Catholic his entire life, despite his treatment by the Catholic Church.  Indeed, almost every scientist in our high school and college textbooks - from Leeouwenhouk to Pasteur, from Newton to Galileo - was a practicing Christian.  In this regard, science and religion are neither mutually exclusive nor antithetical.

    The personal historical data in your e-mail shows where your intense bias and prejudice against - indeed, it would seem, hatred for - anything that even smells of "religion" comes from.  And that visceral hatred would seem to make it impossible for you to discuss the subject rationally.  This saddens me, and I can only pray that one day you will be able to break through that deep-seated hatred and, if not find peace in God, then at least be able to deal with the concept of faith with a little more acceptance and humility.

    Peace.
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Ginger Baker 
      To: Michael Butler 
      Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 12:01 PM
      Subject: [Mb-civic] religion

      bear
      ......i must take issue with your writer ian for his criticism of the harris piece on religion....let's face one simple fact..all religions are basically money making organisations feeding on humanities fear of death...and i do mean ALL religions..harris is quite correct in stating that the bible was written by men who believed the world was flat whether it be the new testament or the old testament...ian by his reference to the old testament is saying that the jewish religion is all old fashioned and wrong [like islam which is the most modern of the three in question]..the qoran was also written by men who believed the world to be flat....i find it mind boggling that in the 21st century we have large groups of human beings putting their trust in these books....as i have stated before all these "holy" books were written by men...NOT god....over fifty years ago i went to a top grammar school because, to everyones amazement it was discovered that i had a brain!! at aged 11 i inquired of the scripture teacher if it was true that jesus was a jewish bastard....i was marched to the head masters study by a purple faced near apoplectic teacher and told to repeat my question which i did...the head master went even purpler than the teacher...."where do you get this nonsense, boy?" i replied truthfully "my mum"....i suspect the beak actually spoke to my mum who gave him very short shrift and i was excused scipture lessons for the rest of my time at the school [5 years]...my mum considered religion as simply "cant"...and so do i....ah well if we still have people actually believing in the immaculate conception and that jesus was the son of god there is little hope for the world...goodness we even have the majority of the worlds top scientists believing that the universe was created by a big bang...no doubt it was god in heaven playing with his chemistry set...madbaker

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