[Mb-civic] religion

[Ian]

Cheeseburger, Robin, Richard et al:

Since Civic is primarily a political site, I suspect that this discussion
has already gone on longer than Michael (or anyone else, for that matter)
would like.  Thus - and without "stifling dissent" or any further
commentary - I would like to make what amounts to a "closing statement,"
which sums up my feelings.

I completely understand the various levels of disdain that some of you have
for "organized religions," especially when it is used for purposes other
than those intended by their founders or spiritual leaders, all of whom
(with the possible exception of Mohammed - but even this is not clear) were
peace-loving, compassionate, well-intentioned (I hate that phrase...)
people.

And as noted in my e-mails, I do not disagree that almost all religions
have, to one degree or another - and sometimes to a dangerously large
degree - been "hijacked" by leaders with less-than-honorable motives and
intentions, from simple self-preservation to outright corruption.  I believe
I have made my case against mainstream Christianity - both Catholic and
Protestant - clear and unmistakable.

As Cheeseburger notes, however, there are still some "true Christians" (the
very term I use) who do follow the "essence" of what Christianity was meant
to be (as opposed to what it has largely become): who live, or try to live,
truly Christ-like lives; who see through and reject (much of) the leadership
of the mainstream, as well as the so-called "Christian Right"; who do not
engage in judgment or condemnation; who do not try to ram their faith down
anyone else's throat (though they may "offer" the Word to others in a
loving, patient and humble way) or to change the politico-economic system to
serve Scriptural ends (i.e., who believe in the separationof church and
state); and who basically "get" what Jesus was, did, said and meant.

I also cannot disagree that, unfortunately, the "true Christians" among us
are a small group compared to: those who cannot or will not see that they
are being misled by their leaders; those who are simply "lemmings"
(actually, I suppose the terminology would be "sheep") who don't know any
better, and follow blindly; and those who consciously and willfully use
Scripture to serve narrow views that are unloving, unforgiving and
ultimately un-Christian.

However, this is the very heart of my position.  While all of you - from the
most "virulent" to the most understanding - certainly have cause to be
"angry" with mainstream and "majority" Christianity vis-a-vis both its
hijacking of the spiritual essence of the faith and its temporal attempts to
remove the separation of church and state and impose a quasi-theocracy, it
seems to me that you would serve the discourse (and your individual
relationships with people) better by channeling your anger and frustration
into loving and patient explanation and "re-teaching" those who either
"don't get it" or willfully ignore "it."

That is, when you posit arguments with a "broad brush," you ignore - and
hurt - the "true Christians" who are "listening," because (as I've said ad
nauseum) you simply lump ALL Christians into a neat little box labeled
"conservative, break-down-the-wall-between-church-and-state,
you're-all-going-to-hell believers."  And even if the number of "true
Christians" is only 10% (though I believe it's probably larger), you
alienate those people by making sweeping generalizations about Christianity.

Needless to say, not all of you have the expertise or knowledge to undertake
such "re-teaching."  However, it is clear to me that even the most virulent
among you "see" some of the obvious non- and un-Christian practices of the
majority of Christians, simply from a basic understanding of Jesus' life and
ministry.  It is not a matter of arguing "theology" - since, as noted, not
all of you have the requisite knowledge to do so - but rather to point out
the most obvious "hypocrisies" in the lives of so many who call themselves
"Christians."  This can be done no matter how little Scriptural knowledge
one has; it is ultimately "common sense" based on what all of you seem to
understand about Christianity and what it was "intended" to be - at least
with respect to how Christians are called to conduct themselves as people
(i.e., separate and apart from issues like sin, grace, repentance and "final
judgment").

As long as there are "true Christians" out there (and, as noted, I believe
they are greater in number than most people think, though they are
admittedly "overwhelmed" by mainstream Christians), taking "broad brush" and
generalized positions would seem simply to continue the "vicious cycle" of
an "us vs. them" mentality, and does little to serve the discourse.

You are entitled to your anger and frustration.  But don't you think that
channeling that anger and frustration into rational and reasonable
discourse - including, where necessary, correction - is a better approach
than simply continuing the inflammatory cycle of mutual disdain?  Indeed,
even if "true Christians" are a small percentage of Christians, the
so-called "Christian Right" (conservative Christians) is also a minority.
In this regard, the vast majority - the lemmings, the lost, etc. - would
seem to deserve your pity and sympathy (and, of course, correction) rather
than your disdain.

I am not saying you should simply accept the "status quo," and not "take on"
the conservative Christian movement at every politico-economic turn.  I am
saying that it would serve YOU better - as reasonable, intelligent people -
to avoid sweeping generalizations, to offer clear and rational correction
(based on whatever understanding you have) to the "lost" majority, and, most
importantly, to ENGAGE those Christians who would side with you if you did
not lump them together with all the others.

Peace.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cheeseburger" <maxfury at granderiver.net>
To: <mb-civic at islandlists.com>
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 4:22 AM
Subject: [Mb-civic] religion


> Re:  religion
>
>
> Ian wrote:
>
> ====
> Within your "diatribe," you make some very good points.
> ====
>
>
> "Uncle Cheeseburger...........!!"
>
> "Yes, kids....."
>
> "What's a 'diatribe', Uncle Cheeseburger......?"
>
> "It's one of the lost tribes of HAIR...."
>
> "Oh.....  Ok......"
>
>
> =====
> Yet I don't hear American Christians talking about how a much larger
number
> of leaders have "hijacked" Christianity to serve narrow, unloving,
> unforgiving and ultimately un-Christian (if not usually violent) views.
> =====
>
> They are unfortunate victims/prisoners of their own Faith.  Manipulated by
> "The Top" so well.  They are either blind sheep or simply cannot bring
> themselves to break from The Lies with a clear conscience without
> "betraying their leadership" which is "surely appointed by God himself or
> they would not possess such power within such a holy structure".  It's
kind
> of like "The Thin Blue Line" that police use to hold "their own" "intact"
> as an "inseparable unit", even as injustices, crimes, and murders are
> committed by those within their ranks.
>
> If they have "ultimate faith" in their God, then they must automatically
> have "ultimate faith" in their "Leaders", no matter how rotten,
destructive
> or murderous, as it remains a very central part of their "dogma of faith"
> that God himself would not put charlatans, tyrants, ruthless men and
women,
> and murderers in positions of authority over =His Holy Vessel=, the
Church,
> here on Earth.
>
> (Even though "the scriptures" themselves historically document it time
> after time, and predict it...")
>
> This is their simple undoing.  And the resultant catastrophe for the rest
> of us in the midst of their "Leaders'" rush up "The Road To Glory" which
> apparently tramples everything within its path.
>
> It is simply just *much* too horrible for them to believe that they have
> been misled.  That they have unwittingly "Partaken Of The Sins" of their
> "Own People At The Top" and have been diligently practicing their Faith
> within a structure of Lies themselves created by people they "revere" and
> "trust".  It is insurmountable insanity for them to even conceive of their
> "Leaders" doing such things, much less that they themselves have drank
from
> the cup.
>
> So they don't.
>
> And such are "the sheep of God" led so disastrously astray like lemmings
to
> their own destruction.
>
> With all the rest of us in tow.
>
>
>
> =======
> You also note the "good samaritan" - as you point out, a critical example
> that was kept in Scripture for a reason.
>
> You also note the incident in which someone was casting out demons in
> Jesus' name, but was not a disciple.  This passage is worth quoting: "Now
> John answered Him, saying 'Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us
> casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not
> follow us.'  But Jesus said, 'Do not forbid him, for no one who works a
> miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.  For he who is not
> against us is on our side."  Mark 9:38-40.
>
> Finally, I want to paraphrase you at length because, again, you are so
> correct and it warrants repeating: "No matter how you slice it, mainstream
> Christianity has so very long to go to ever even approach catching up to
> Jesus Himself, much less His actual teachings.  And they're so busy
> condemning everyone but themselves that they have absolutely no time left
to
> look into it.  And they sit in the front pew every Sunday morning and
> profess their piety, purity and charity."
>
> Bravo!  I could not have put it better myself.
>
> Peace.
> =========
>
>
> Now, if someone could only figure out a way to actually save all those
> people blindly following all these "False Prophets" who are leading them,
> and the rest of us as a result, to the "precipices of Hell", that would
> certainly be an accomplishment.
>
> Such thoughts and speech are currently, as they always have been, branded
> as "Heresy" "Words from the Devil" and "Grounds for Excommunication" "Etc"
> by those at "The Top" who misguide and manipulate the Masses for their own
> personal reasons and profit.
>
> It is not necessarily anymore, as in that movie "The Usual Suspects" that
> "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he
> didn't exist", but rather that the minions of Hell itself now run
> "Organized Religion" across the globe, for the most part, and point to
> anyone who dares oppose them and shout "Witch...!!", and the lemming-sheep
> automatically begin to softly chant "Burn, witch, burn....  Burn, witch,
> burn..." until they build to a symphonic crescendo that Heaven never
> dreamed of scoring.
>
> To help people like that, who it's now rather over-obvious that they could
> use a little help, is almost impossible.
>
> Almost.
>
>
> Cheeseburger
>
> - Where has the sparrow gone now that I need its song.
>
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