[Mb-hair] Re: Re: REPLY TO VERY CONTROVERSIAL

[fotoblue at flash.net]

well, consider this:
 if there IS a God, and I myself have problems with this, 
given the current state of the world, the earth etc -
then he or she understands our reasons for doubting and not blindly
"believing".

 SO: if you don't believe, you then are probably pleasantly  surprised when
you die
to find out that he/she does exist, and I'm sure will be  forgiven.

I certainly do NOT believe in the wrathful version that then casts
unbelievers into hell.
As we all know, HELL can be right here on earth. You don't have to wait for
it.
Some people even carry it inside themselves. ..

On this note, which probably will surprise a few fellow tribies,
 I do wish you happy holidays, may it be Christmas, or Hanukkah, 
or whatever else you feel like celebrating.

Happy Third of Advent
P&L 
Dagmar




Original Message:
-----------------
From: Ian ialterman at nyc.rr.com
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 11:45:03 -0500
To: dreamgrifter at yahoo.com
Subject: [Mb-hair] Re: Re: REPLY TO VERY CONTROVERSIAL


dreamgrifter:

In case you are unaware, what you have stated is the summation of what is 
called "Pascal's wager."  Pascal put forward four premises.  Simply stated 
they are:

"If I believe in God and there is no God, no harm is done.  If I believe in 
God and there is a God, no harm is done, and good may come.  If I do not 
believe in God and there is no God, no harm is done.  If I do not believe
in 
God and there is a God, then harm may come.  Thus, in three out of four 
cases, it is better (i.e., "safer") to believe in God than not to."

While this argument is certainly "logical" (which was Pascal's reason for 
stating it, given that he was a logician, among other things), attempting
to 
"hedge one's bets" by following it is, unfortunately, not enough.

Even my atheist older brother (a philosophy professor) was able to explain 
to my atheist younger brother (an amateur philosopher of sorts) why:
because 
if there is a God, He knows our HEARTS.  Thus, simply "believing" in Him - 
i.e., stating such belief without "true, heartfelt faith" behind it - will 
not fool Him, and thus our "wager" ("hedging our bet") will ultimately fail.

Peace.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Butler" <michael at michaelbutler.com>
To: "Ian Alterman" <ialterman at nyc.rr.com>
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 11:23 AM
Subject: FW: REPLY TO VERY CONTROVERSIAL


>
> ------ Forwarded Message
> From: "d st.b" <dreamgrifter at yahoo.com>
> Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 22:01:11 -0800 (PST)
> To: Michael Butler <michael at michaelbutler.com>
> Subject: Re: REPLY TO VERY CONTROVERSIAL
>
> And on a much further and deeper note still....
>  "I'd rather live my life believing in God, die and find out that I was
> wrong,
>  Than live my life disbelieving in God, die and find that I was wrong."
>
> Michael Butler <michael at michaelbutler.com> wrote:
>  Ian has responded to Sam Harris's article "An Atheist Manifesto"
>
>

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